Students Who Don’t Seem to Care
An Interview with Psychotherapist, Anthony Riske
Welcome to Students Who Don’t Seem to Care: An Interview with Psychotherapist, Anthony Riske. Most of us have experienced frustration when our students don’t seem to care about their coursework. It’s mind-boggling – even heartbreaking – that they signed up and paid tuition and now seem resistant and disinterested. I’m Anne Williams, and today I talk with psychotherapist, Anthony Riske about the application of Motivational Interviewing principles in adult education. I’ve broken the interview into a series of shorter video clips so that busy teachers can zero in on topics that particularly interest them. Watch them in order or jump around. Directly below each clip are notes adapted from the video transcript. These notes serve as a summary of the important concepts discussed in the video. Find out more about Anthony or contact him through his website, anthonyriskecounseling.com.
01: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: Welcome to Students Who Don’t Seem to Care: An Interview with Psychotherapist, Anthony Riske. Most of us have experienced frustration when our students don’t seem to care about their coursework. It’s mind-boggling – even heartbreaking – that they signed up and paid tuition and now seem resistant and disinterested. I’m Anne Williams and today I talk with psychotherapist Anthony Riske about the application of Motivational Interviewing principles in adult education.
Anthony is a psychotherapist with 18 years of experience guiding individuals and families toward their values, ideals, and aspirations. Anthony brings experience from wilderness therapy, marriage, and family therapy, and community and school-based mentoring programs to our conversation. Beyond his clinical work, Anthony provides consultation for therapeutic and educational organizations to support their efforts to develop programs that empower participants. Anthony is a great resource for schools and instructors. You can find his contact details just below this video introduction.
In our conversation today, we get at the heart of student motivation and discuss a range of ideas related to student resistance, feelings of being overwhelmed, and more. I’ve broken the interview into a series of shorter video clips so that busy teachers can zero in on topics that particularly interest them. Watch them in order or jump around. Directly below each clip is a lightly-edited transcript of our conversation. You might also wish to download the full podcast and listen while you commute, take a walk, or make dinner.
The overarching goal of this discussion is to improve our communication skills to better connect with students to create inspiring classroom environments. Before I welcome Anthony, I want to provide some context by offering a brief introduction to Motivational Interviewing.
- Motivational Interviewing is a counseling approach centered around enhancing intrinsic motivation to change by exploring and resolving ambivalence.
- Motivational Interviewing helps people examine the discrepancies between their current behaviors and broader goals or values, gently guiding them toward recognizing the benefits of change.
- Motivational interviewing conversations aim to encourage “change talk,” which refers to the student’s own arguments for change. The facilitator listens for and reinforces statements that indicate a desire, ability, reason, or need for change, as well as commitment language that signals the student’s intention to change.
During the interview, Anthony mentions OARS. This acronym stands for the core communication skills used in motivational interviewing:
- Open-ended questions encourage students to express themselves because they require more than a yes or no answer.
- Affirmations recognize and acknowledge the student’s strengths and efforts, which can enhance their confidence and motivation.
- Reflective listening happens when teachers reflect student thoughts and feelings, validating their experiences.
- Summarizing integrates and links the student’s comments over time, which helps reinforce their motivation and commitment to change.
Be sure to check out the resources section at the bottom of this webpage for books and other materials you might find interesting. Okay! I think we’re ready to welcome Anthony and jump in to the first question where Anthony provides more context on what motivational interviewing is, and how it works.
Anne: Hi Anthony, it’s wonderful to have you with us. Thank you for taking the time to discuss motivational interviewing and its potential applications in teaching. Can we start by defining motivational interviewing and explaining its fundamental principles?
Anthony: Sure, motivational interviewing is a method of guided inquiry focused on eliciting ‘change talk’ from individuals. It’s about uncovering a student’s, or in my usual work, a client’s personal motivations and what they’re inclined to work towards. Originally, motivational interviewing is used in psychotherapy, especially with individuals dealing with addictions. However, I’ve also applied it to those struggling with various life challenges, such as failure to launch, social reclusiveness, and marital issues.
It’s crucial to understand that in motivational interviewing, the interviewer, while not adopting an expert stance, is not entirely neutral either. Our goal is to weave through the conversation and guide the individual towards their genuine desires. Nonetheless, it’s up to the student to determine their own goals. I realize this might lead to frustration in your educational programs when there’s a mismatch between the student’s behavior and the agreed-upon objectives.
02: Video notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: Could you share some techniques used in motivational interviewing?
Anthony: Motivational interviewing can be framed using Prochaska and DiClemente’s stages of change. These stages are:
- Pre-contemplation: The individual doesn’t acknowledge a problem exists.
- Contemplation: The individual realizes there’s a problem but is only starting to think about change.
- Preparation: The individual is getting ready to change.
- Action: The individual actively works on changing.
It’s now recognized that relapse is often part of this process. When applying this to teaching, we can see education as a process of change. Students might be at different stages, but they’re enrolled because they want to take action, which can be for personal enrichment or career advancement. However, they might regress and question if the education path is right for them.
Anne: I understand. Students find the challenge greater than expected and may want to retreat. Recognizing where students are in this model is key, and we should continuously invite them to engage with the process of change.
Anthony: We must be open about the potential changes. Sometimes students drop out, and that’s the change they want. Motivational interviewing isn’t about telling them what to do; it’s a way to help them figure out their path. Change isn’t a straight line; it’s often two steps forward, one step back, and can be unsettling. We might encounter resistance, which we’ll likely discuss more. Resistance is an opportunity for an intentional conversation to help students overcome barriers and reconnect with their initial goals.
Anne: When I directed education at a massage school, I used to tell our faculty that students are always close to dropping out. I kept our attrition low by being available as a support. When students wanted to drop out, I’d ask why and offer solutions like postponing quizzes or creating a learning plan. The key was to provide support to help them stay unless they were sure the career wasn’t for them. With that support, they usually stayed, allowing us to maintain an attrition rate below 5%.
03: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: Can you give an example of how you’ve used motivational interviewing with a client to facilitate change?
Anthony: In my psychotherapy practice, I often work with individuals who identify as sex and love addicts. This is a particularly engaging group because, unlike smoking or substance abuse, they need to navigate their need for relationships alongside their addiction. Motivational interviewing has been instrumental in guiding these clients. I use the OARS technique: Open-ended questions to explore their situation, Affirmations to encourage them, Reflections to mirror their desires for change, and Summaries to reinforce their action plans.
In the early phase, I ask questions to evoke their desire for change, like what they seek in future relationships, how their current dating habits help or hinder them, and how their actions align with their vision of themselves as a future partner. This is about shaping identity and cultivating motivations for healthier relationships.
Anne: What you’re saying sparks a reflection on my past teaching approach. I used to focus solely on content, telling students to ignore social issues and focus on grades. But I’ve learned that human connection is essential. If students don’t feel accepted and can’t fit in, learning is impeded. As teachers, we need to create an environment where acceptance and belonging are central, not just between us and the students but among the students themselves.
Moving forward, prioritizing students’ mental health and emotional space is vital. It’s about helping them focus not just on academic goals but also on the role they wish to play within their peer group.
Anthony: Motivational interviewing isn’t just about internal change; it’s about integrating that change into the world. It’s about understanding how a person’s ‘human being’ translates into ‘human doing.’ We must acknowledge the need for a support network that extends beyond internal motivations. In a world that can often feel fragmented and lonely, fostering connections and a sense of purpose in the classroom is crucial.
04: Video notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: How can teachers effectively respond to resistance from adult students from a motivational interviewing perspective, without escalating to counseling referrals?
Anthony: It’s essential to view resistance as a form of communication. When a student is outwardly dismissive of activities, it’s usually an indirect message about an underlying issue, such as a fear of failure, fear of success, or confusion about the purpose of an assignment.
For instance, while visiting a friend studying massage therapy in Costa Rica, I observed her cohort expressing distaste for an assignment. It seemed like a collective venting of stress, but post-completion, my friend found parts of the assignment helpful, despite initially feeling overwhelmed. This points to the concept of the zone of proximal development, where learning should be challenging but not overwhelming. The student likely needs to engage in a dialogue to find creative solutions to their challenges.
Anne: You’re mentioning the zone of proximal development by Lev Vygotsky, which is vital for educational planning. It’s about creating activities that are just beyond the student’s current ability but attainable with support.
Often, what we perceive as resistance is actually a student’s fear of appearing inadequate or being overwhelmed. Teachers need to provide scaffolding—like checklists and guidance on approaching tasks. Resistance signals a need for teachers to reassess how they prepare and support students. Utilizing the “more knowledgeable other” by pairing students can help those who are overwhelmed.
Anthony: Motivational interviewing can reveal when a student is outside their zone of proximal development. Curiosity about the student’s behavior, rather than imposing rigid standards, can lead to better understanding and adaptation. Once students feel heard and can navigate their barriers to change, they approach learning with more openness. The teacher’s role shifts from merely educating to facilitating the learning process, adjusting or revisiting curriculum to better fit the students’ needs.
05: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anthony: Reflecting on my graduate school experience, I grappled with the high cost and worried about my future earning potential as a therapist. I wish someone had provided guidance on what I could expect financially, giving me confidence that the effort and debt would be worthwhile. This kind of context and counseling could have given my education more relevance and eased the burden.
Anne: I believe it’s crucial for teachers to emphasize the relevance of their subject matter right from the start. Inspired by my mother, a curriculum designer for gifted students, I learned the importance of establishing meaning before any activity. I adopted the approach of viewing my lessons through a “why should they care” lens, eliminating ‘nice to know’ content in favor of ‘need to know’. If the importance of the content isn’t clear and compelling, it probably doesn’t belong in the curriculum. This shift in focus helped me reduce what I perceived as student resistance.
I recall a powerful article titled “Just get on with it! The silent plea of your adult learners,” which resonates with the idea of keeping the curriculum relevant and to the point.
06: Video notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: When adult students feel overwhelmed and contemplate quitting, what should our first move be, according to motivational interviewing?
Anthony: Motivational interviewing focuses on empowering the student to draw upon their own resources. Start with open-ended questions to encourage them to share their experiences. When they express perseverance but doubt their ability to continue, use affirmations to validate their efforts, which can be comforting during moments of discouragement.
Delve deeper with more open-ended questions to explore their learning methods, highlight any small successes, and recognize their moments of clarity, even if overshadowed by stress or setbacks. Revisiting times when the student was successful can offer clues to what supports might help them regain stability, whether it’s a study buddy, specific study tools, or remembering the purpose behind their hard work.
Anne: It seems vital to identify the ‘bright spots’ where things were working and leverage those insights to create a structure that helps students find a manageable pace again. Often, being overwhelmed is the issue, and they need a break to regroup.
Teachers should be flexible in accommodating students’ needs, perhaps by reevaluating rigid policies that hinder a student’s ability to catch up. Allowing them the necessary space to breathe and regain control is essential.
07: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: We’re discussing the need for empathic teachers who can create supportive environments. How can we develop these qualities if it’s not how we were traditionally trained?
Anthony: Years ago, I embraced the concept of a ‘spirit of practice’ in teaching. It’s about understanding what drives us personally to this profession. What resonated with me and aligns with motivational interviewing is the power of curiosity. Realizing I don’t need to have all the answers, but instead, I can be an expert on the process and use my curiosity to explore and understand, was liberating. This approach helps prevent burnout and allows me to appreciate the unique and sometimes surprising resources people find for themselves.
Teachers should be curious about their role in educating the next generation and find their own ethos for teaching. This isn’t about being the sole expert but about engaging with knowledge as a tool for self-discovery and empowerment.
For educators, locating themselves within this dynamic process is the ‘spirit of instruction.’ Empowerment is key—helping students build from small successes and understand their capabilities. Motivational interviewing reinforces this by meeting students where they are and fostering their natural inclinations toward health, healing, and learning, focusing on moving forward rather than dwelling on the past.
08: Video notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: Teachers often have to assert their authority in the classroom, which can feel like a constant battle. You could be debating with a student over a single quiz point for 20 minutes. It’s a delicate balance between addressing individual concerns and keeping the class on track. How can teachers navigate these interpersonal relationships while managing curriculum requirements and maintaining control?
Anthony: If a student is insistent about a quiz point, I’d explore whether their challenge is truly about the point or if it’s disrupting the class. I would engage them directly: What does that point represent for you? How does it connect to your future career? If the issue seems pertinent, we might table it for a later time. Sometimes a student’s actions could be a cue for a class-wide discussion if it reflects a broader concern.
During my grad school, the obsession with grades was evident. I’d encourage my peers to consider the real value of their grades in the context of our future profession. Once, a professor challenged a top-achieving student by setting a ceiling of a “C” on an assignment to teach a valuable lesson. These interactions suggest that a nuanced conversation can sometimes reveal deeper insights or shift the focus to more substantial educational outcomes than just the grade.
Anne: Reframing the situation like that is really thoughtful. We often idolize the high achievers, but focusing on that can miss the point. No employer is going to care about a “C” if the student excels in their practical skills. It’s a reminder that taking care of oneself and building resilience is more important than a flawless academic record. Perhaps we should emphasize the importance of developing a balanced identity that isn’t solely tied to academic perfection.
09: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anthony: Instructors play a pivotal role in evaluating how students are performing, using established rubrics, assessments, or frameworks. It’s important for them to identify what’s working for each student in order to maintain a supportive and encouraging environment. Beyond facilitating the classroom dynamics, instructors should also foster peer support and collaborative affirmations.
We’ve discussed the importance of engaging with students, leaning into conversations about the challenges they face, the factors contributing to these challenges, and their emotional impact. It’s essential to acknowledge and process these difficulties, but the ultimate goal is to ascertain how a student can progress from their current state to the next level – not to achieve immediate, perfect success, but to understand the incremental steps forward. For instance, level six for a student might mean adopting a morning walk routine to help center their focus for tasks like writing a paper. An educator can’t uncover these personalized strategies without engaging in a thorough interviewing process to discover how a student can take small, proactive steps forward, even when facing setbacks.”
Let’s remember that the motivation we tap into isn’t created; it’s already there, waiting to be uncovered. If we consider that individuals have an inherent tendency to engage with learning, to graduate, seek licensure, and to work in private or group practice, then our task becomes identifying and removing barriers. As instructors, we should recognize the capability within each student and ask: What’s holding them back? We engage with students about anticipating challenges and reflect on past experiences where they’ve overcome similar hurdles, tapping into resources or support they’ve previously found effective. We’re aiming to be specific about the resources available to each student, adopting a facilitator’s role to reinforce the belief that they can achieve their goals. We just need to understand what obstacles are in their way.
Sometimes, a student’s loss of vision or dreams is the obstacle. The present moment can be so overwhelming that the future seems too much to even hope for. This is where the sense of belonging becomes crucial. Feeling like they are part of a program, working alongside peers, and identifying as a professional in training can provide strength when self-doubt creeps in. Knowing that others are on the same journey can be incredibly empowering. It’s about fostering that sense of membership and encouraging students to realize that if they continue with the process that has worked for others, there’s no reason it won’t work for them as well.
Anne: What strikes me is the idea that students aren’t inherently lacking motivation; it’s just that their motivation is hindered by various burdens. It’s our responsibility to act as Ganesh, the remover of obstacles, to unburden their motivation by identifying and eliminating the barriers they face. This clears the path for them to envision a future that they cannot currently see due to these obstacles. Our role in facilitating learning is crucial in this aspect. Also, the concept of belonging to a community is vitally important. Recognizing oneself as part of a collective, a tribe, is a powerful human need that we observe universally. I would like to delve deeper into the significance of this sense of belonging and how it can be actionable in our teaching.”
10: Video notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anthony: Motivational interviewing aligns with other therapeutic modalities like narrative therapy, which draws from anthropological insights, notably the concept of a definitional ceremony. This idea is showcased in Barbara Meyerhoff’s work with an aging Jewish community, explored in her book “Number Our Days” and a related documentary. The community’s journey to redefine their identity in Venice Beach, California, after being uprooted and united under their faith, is a powerful example of identity formation. In narrative therapy, this process allows individuals to reflect on their own stories when they hear other people’s stories, which can be incredibly impactful in a learning environment.
Anne: You’ve surprised me. It’s about more than how we define ourselves; it’s about how others’ stories resonate with us and help us understand ourselves better, isn’t it?
Anthony: Yes, exactly. Motivational interviewing is adjacent to these concepts because it emphasizes a communication style that centers on the individual’s expertise in their own life. It encourages students to narrate their stories and see themselves in a broader context. For educators, this could be an initial step in student engagement—understanding why students are drawn to their field and who has influenced them. In a classroom setting, having students share their narratives and inviting others to reflect on the shared experiences can foster a sense of connection, revealing common motivations like a desire to improve the lives of the aging population through massage therapy. These shared narratives build a sense of community in the classroom, countering the loneliness and fragmentation often felt in the wider world. It’s about recognizing that our stories have the power to resonate with others and that there’s value in that shared experience.
Anne: This is a beautiful concept that brings us full circle to the importance of belonging and feeling safe in a group. It suggests a profound icebreaker activity that can deepen interpersonal connections quickly. Recent research, like that discussed in “Supercommunicators,” by Charles Duhigg supports the idea that deep, meaningful questions can rapidly forge strong bonds between people.
11: Video Notes
Key Points from the Conversation:
Anne: As we conclude, do you have any parting insights or suggestions for educators?
Anthony: I recommend that teachers interested in learning about motivational interviewing consider experimenting with it firsthand, perhaps through a series of sessions. Engaging with a therapist trained in motivational interviewing can offer valuable insights. Since this method is typically concise, involving about four to six sessions, educators can gain practical experience with its techniques, such as utilizing open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries. This direct engagement can enhance one’s understanding and application of these strategies. For those seeking foundational texts, Miller and Rollnick’s “Motivational Interviewing: Helping People Change” is an excellent resource.
Anne: For educators and schools eager to learn more directly from you, is there an opportunity for them to engage with you for consultations or collaborative work with faculty groups?
Anthony: Absolutely. I have collaborated with therapeutic boarding schools and am open to similar engagements. My experiences, particularly within therapeutic contexts, could be beneficial to educational settings as well.
Anne: Having access to an expert like you, who has a profound understanding of learning dynamics and personal growth, is incredibly inspiring. We appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and look forward to potentially incorporating these insights into our teaching practices.
Contact Anthony through his website, www.anthonyriskecounseling.com.
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These free teacher resources are curated or created by Anne Williams. Anne’s passion for massage therapy education, learning theory, and instructional design inspires an ongoing desire to support massage instructors with knowledge, skills, and resources that make teaching more efficient, effective, and enjoyable.
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